“Let’s Start With Sticking Together”: The Ruralists on Music and Community

[Note: This interview was made for listening. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print.]

Mark Munger: You're listening to a live broadcast of SPM PM. I am Mark Munger, and I am so glad to be saying "Hello" from the Fruited Plain in Sioux Center. And I'm joined tonight by the Ruralists.

If you're unfamiliar with the band, they are about to become your favorite. And if you're familiar, you know what I'm talking about. The music they make is enough, but it is also true that the more you know about them, the more you will love them. The ideas they have of community, of what brings meaning to life, of how we can live and work and love together, is expressed in every part of what they do. They've been together with choruses of the community, brought in their neighborhood saxophone player, and constructed this place where we can gather and feel good: the Back Back.

Vocalist and guitarist Luke Hawley and guitarist Laremy De Vries join me tonight on stage. The band also includes bassist Jake Miller, drummer Christian Lief, and sax and keys man Brody Joens. Although I'm hoping I'm pronouncing his name correctly. The N and the E seem to be flipped. Yeah. Well, they are. They are.

So you have a new album out, and we're celebrating it tonight. It's called Letting Go. And this is our release party, so we're gonna spend some time talking about the making of the album and the songs, and listening to the songs themselves. So, let's let's get the party rolling.

Thanks so much for for having us here and for letting us do this with you.

Luke Hawley: Thanks for coming out, Mark.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, yeah.

Mark Munger: Let's start with the idea of the album and where it came from. I mean, again, it's an existential concern that goes throughout the album.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, they usually are.

Laremy De Vries: Do they start that way or do they end that way? Are they is it that's it the whole time or?

Luke Hawley: Yeah, I mean you know we we joked about the last one about naming it Existential Love Songs from Middle Age, and this is probably just Existential Love Songs from Middle Age Part Two or something.

Mark Munger: Part two. It seems to be a continuation of some of the concerns.

Luke Hawley: Yeah. So the last one was the second one was Trying, and then this is the third one is Letting Go. And I feel like those two things fit together really well. Like we still are trying to let go. How did it come to be? I I started writing a song a month was what I what I was trying to do, and then I would bring those songs down to the Back Back, and we would put them together. And I think we started with with "Coins in the Fountain," which is the 10th one on the record, and we played it. And Laremy said, "Oh, that can we can end a record with that."

Laremy De Vries: Yeah.

Luke Hawley: So so we had the end, and it was a song about being happy to have the time that we have, which is kind of all the songs all the time. And then...

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, I think when we were kind of working on it, I think we had this just like it's got this big space near the this long outro, and we just knew that we needed to make that pretty epic, and we knew we needed more than just the the five of us in order to really make that epic.

Luke Hawley: Yeah,

Laremy De Vries: And so that's when we brought in, you know, I think it was our our two daughters and and their friends, The Girlists, to do some background singing.

Luke Hawley: Oh, he doesn't know this.

Mark Munger: I don't know about

Luke Hawley: We've just broken the Girlists.

Mark Munger: You should have told me about this before. Before we went on air.

Laremy De Vries: So my daughter Corey, Luke's daughter Eden plays bass. Christian's sister is the drummer, and then their friend Severina. And yeah, my daughter does a lot of original songs, so they do some of that and lots of, you know, covers of the songs that girls these days like, like Cranberries.

Mark Munger: That was not the expected band.

Laremy De Vries: You weren't expecting the cranberries.

Luke Hawley: So we're putting this song together, and at the end there's this line that repeats, "I'm happy we've had the time that we've had," and then there's a long pause, and we were trying to figure out in writing it, like either we just go like we cut the the iteration in half so that we can so I can sing it sort of right over on top of each other, or we find something to put in between. And somebody, probably Jake, said let's doo wop because that feels like a Jake anyway a Jake move yeah and I was like, yeah, we can certainly do some ewws there. And then Laremy maybe said we should have the Girlists do some ewws, and then it became this challenge of like, how do we work everybody we know into this record that we're gonna make?

Mark Munger: Yeah, well, that is one thing that I love about you. I mean, this last album that you did, you know, I got to come up and you walked me through the neighborhood.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, it was awesome.

Mark Munger: And I pointed out where you recorded different things.

Laremy De Vries: And this one, I mean, even more people.

We'll talk about it, you know, kind of as we go through. But that was kind of the starting point, and then it just kind of took off from there.

You know, just one little more anecdote about the sort of whole project.

Mark Munger: Okay.

Laremy De Vries: Christian, our drummer, who's much younger than us, was getting married or got married, but we that was kind of a a thing that we that sort of spurred us on a little bit to use one of your favorite horse metaphors.

Mark Munger: I'm glad you've brought that up.

Laremy De Vries: I'm not sure who's the horse and who's the guest horse or what's going on here.

Mark Munger: We're all horses. Yeah,

Laremy De Vries: so a real troika here in a literal sense.

Luke Hawley: Wow.

So we saw the end coming. We knew that Christian was getting married and that he was also moving away. His lovely wife was going to go to graduate school somewhere, and something in me like kicked into overdrive. Like I better write all these songs, and we kind of put them together. And let's. This might be the last thing that we do, and we want as many people to be a part of it as possible.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah.

And there were, you know, it kind of made you sort of pull parts of songs. Like this first song we're going to hear. Like, isn't the outro kind of from some much older song, and and like you kind of pieced some other things together, and

Luke Hawley: Yeah, part of that too was trying. I like had committed to write a song a month, which I didn't quite make it the whole year.

Mark Munger: There are only 11 songs. Just clarify that.

Laremy De Vries: One of those special calendars.

Luke Hawley: I'm going back through all of my notebooks and like trying to just find bits and pieces that might work in a song, and sometimes that means going back to songs I wrote 20 years ago.

So the "Secret to Being Light," which is the opening number, the outro or bridge or whatever is 20 years old, and was a song that I loved the end of and didn't know what to think about the beginning of, and so I rewrote the beginning, and then because we were thinking about how do we involve people, it seemed like the perfect opportunity to ask my daughter to sing along with me. So Eden is the other voice that you hear in the chorus... in the verses on that song, and actually all throughout.

Mark Munger: That's great. I'm glad to hear that. I'm glad you've brought up the first song because I think we we want to get to that shortly. I also like the idea that you began with the end. You know, the last song was really the beginning. You know, the the beginning of a new married life was sort of the end of possibly the end of another thing, which spurred you to do this. So it all goes together pretty well with the lyrics that that run throughout the album and the concerns that you have.

In the Secret to Being Light, song number one, also, it starts you know, four on the floor and about love. Obviously. "Is there anger in your heart?" Is the first lyric. "There is in mine, and it's tearing me apart." I think that's...

Laremy De Vries: Luke heard that in church.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, I heard that in church. My our friend Justin Bailey was preaching, and he said it, and I, I just wrote it down, and I thought that it belonged in a song at some point.

I thought actually what I thought was, "It's true." Like there is anger in my heart. and Justin will say he didn't say, "All the time." I added the all the time, so...

Laremy De Vries: twice.

Luke Hawley: Twice, you repeated it. I really just like digging in there. I'm

Mark Munger: I'm on a stage with you

When I first heard that lyric, I thought, well, this is really an album for a our time. I mean, it is a time where people feel very angry, and it's and it's evident everywhere. And I don't recall another time in my life where it's been so evident, and and and even in myself too. Just feeling, yeah, angry and disappointed a lot of time as somebody in public radio, specifically. And we don't express anger well, this is hard for us.

Luke Hawley: Well, you express it really kindly.

Laremy De Vries: Is this where you mentioned that like the fund drive is starting or not?

Mark Munger: It's soon. It's part of yeah.

Luke Hawley: This is where we should mention that 10 years ago, almost to the day, I think it was October 20, 2016. You asked us to come to Sioux City and play on the radio for a fund drive, and it was absolutely a dream come true, just to be on public radio. And this is

Laremy De Vries: This is like our anniversary, Mark.

Luke Hawley: This is our anniversary, Mark.

Mark Munger: Yeah. Wow.

Luke Hawley: And also, this is so much better than like cramming into your little tiny studio and playing two songs. So this is great.

Mark Munger: I didn't bring a present.

Laremy De Vries: That's all right. We didn't either.

Luke Hawley: That's right. We already we both have faces with your or mugs with your faces on them already.

Mark Munger: That's a real gift.

So back to the "Secret to Being Light." The first song, again. It really sets out not only the philosophical ideas that that are that are to come, but also the sound. I think you know that first song establishes this wonderful sound that is unlike anything else I hear from from any other bands. And I think you know you're inspired by the people who are around you. I know speaking of, I mentioned the saxophonist earlier. You happen to be a neighbor, you know. So you you search the world around you, and sort of that's the sound you create.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think this. Yeah, we couldn't have made this record without Brody, obviously. But like, Brody had graduated and was, honestly, like, I wanted him and Christian to hang out because I felt like they would have a good time together, and so we invited him to practice. And then before we knew it, there was a saxophonist with us all the time, and he can tell you like I was pretty wary about it at first. My saxophone imagination is like Lisa Simpson, Bill Clinton, and the guy from SNL. Like that's it. And and Brody has really expanded that in some really wonderful ways.

Mark Munger: I'm glad he's open to possibilities.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, me too.

Mark Munger: It's good to travel with you on saxophonist. There are a few things as true in life, so I think I think it'd be a good idea to listen to the music. So I think if we can hit that song, number one.

This is SPM PM live from the Back Back in the Fruited Plain in Sioux Center. It's boxes within boxes here. I'm your horse, Mark Munger. It's a pleasure to have you with me as we talk to Luke and Laremy from the Ruralists. It's an album release show. We just heard the first song from the new album. The song was called "The Secret to Being Light," and the secret, as you just heard, is is letting go.

Luke Hawley: That's it.

Mark Munger: That's it.

Luke Hawley: Yeah.

Mark Munger: After after all that heavy thinking. Yeah.

Laremy De Vries: Exactly.

Luke Hawley: Yeah. Easier said than done.

Mark Munger: I think probably a lot easier said than done.

Yeah. The issues in there, I mean, not fitting in, the pain of of being alive, like the constant, the constant pain of being alive. Is there something that you are specifically feeling at the time when you're when you're writing about this?

Luke Hawley: No, I don't think specifically. I think I'm always trying to name the like the dissonance in the human existence or condition or whatever, right? And one of those dissonances, dissonances, is that it hurts to be alive sometimes, right? And the back half of that line, tangled in that pain, you might be surprised by the... you find is like that's the payoff for me. That's the the part that I have to remember Sometimes, so...

Mark Munger: Yeah, I think as we get older, that has to become enough. The joy in small things,

Luke Hawley: Yeah,

Mark Munger: and the friendships and the the meaning we make. I think that... I mean I felt very moved by by that idea throughout the album.

Luke Hawley: Thank you.

Mark Munger: But also in the album, we talked about the sound. It sounds like there's an accordion in it, but is that just thinking?

Oh, you know what?

Luke Hawley: That is right behind you on stage. Is there a

Laremy De Vries: That little red suitcase over there?

Luke Hawley: There's a red suitcase that has a cord organ made in West Germany. That we...

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, I found it at a Goodwill. Anytime I find something that has like black and white keys at a Goodwill, like I have to buy. As you can see from the there a lot of like white collection the organ. I have an organ collection, which not many people can say, but it's a little...

Luke Hawley: So that so I think we got it. That I mean, I would I would guess what happened was that Laremy brought it to the Back Back to practice on a day that we just happened to be working on that song, and it was like, "Hey, play that weird new organ, Brody,"

Laremy De Vries: [Singing] "play that weird new organ"

Luke Hawley: There you go. And that's sort of yeah. That is how it that's how it happened.

Laremy De Vries: On I think on our last record, I played accordion some, or I played accordion probably on all of our records, but it's, I'm not very good at it...

Luke Hawley: We often record it left hand first, and then I record the right hand, and then we just mix them together.

Laremy De Vries: The billows, the bellows, what are they anyway? There's a an inconsistent. I'm an inconsistent..,

Luke Hawley: Bellower?

Laremy De Vries: Yeah. Anyway, we need some audience participation to find these words.

Luke Hawley: So the I can't remember what the thing is called. It's an Apollo organ, something like that. Yeah, that has consistent bellows.

Laremy De Vries: Exactly.

Luke Hawley: like blows all the time.

Mark Munger: The Apollo organ, God of the Sun.

Luke Hawley: That's right.

Mark Munger: Well, song two. I'm going to jump in. All right, let's do it. Uncanny Valley, the uncanny. I mean, I mean, this is yeah. So when we talk about this, is often in the world of technology that we're thinking. So yeah, go ahead.

Luke Hawley: It's kind of an embarrassing story for me because we were here talking about the about AI and about the the Will Smith eating spaghetti video. And Jake said, yeah, it's you know it's something about an uncanny valley, and I was like, "What does that mean?" And I had never heard the term before. And then he shamed me into like,

Laremy De Vries: "No, don't worry, I didn't either. I'm I'm even older than you." No, you hadn't.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, so this is the great thing about playing in a band where like one guy's 20 and getting married, and one guy's 40x number or something. And I was I was sort. I was fascinated by the term and started sort of singing that first line in my head. And then, I mean, this song got built like in what we would call in the box more than the other ones. Like we pieced it together, recording it instead of.... We usually bring a song in, play it live with all of us, and sort of until it works.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, three or four or five or six or you know 20. Who knows?

Luke Hawley: But this one was much more sort of piece by piece. I think there was a guitar originally in it, and that came out, and the piano went in, and and little by little. In fact, there's this really fantastic trumpet solo on there that Jake wrote the notes for, and Brody's friend Marin Hettinga played for us. So this was our sort of our local on the record. I don't even know if she's a local anymore, but she was a student at Dordt, and she did a great job. And and Jake wrote a great part. And Eden said it when I was playing her demos one time. She was like, "It sounds really cinematic," and I was like, "Yes, that's great. That's uh, that's what we're going for, spaghetti western or something like that."

But, but one of the things about this song that I that I love is that it really is it really is about that idea of of AI and and and robots in the uncanny valley or whatever, and what makes us human in it, and like trying to remember our humanness, and I think making the song a song,like the the the way that turned out, felt like a really human experience. The piano is,I don't think it's... it's is an old piano that used to be at the Back Back that is obviously out of tune, like it, and that was that was important to me. Like a little bit of like I just wanted to hear the real thing in the middle of this song that was about AI.

Mark Munger: What time has done to the tuning? Yeah, I mean, in the in the in the song you say the irreducible you, not not the sum of your parts, and that even goes to I guess how you're finding this song. I mean, looking at all the parts, removing some, putting some back, and finding what is irreducible about it to put it together. It's it's nice how that all works out.

Luke Hawley: And this irreducibility is one of Laremy's sort of favorite philosophical ideas to talk about.

Mark Munger: So let's move on. We only have two hours.

Laremy De Vries: Well, there's actually something sort of funny about this song. At what point didn't we plug this song into AI just to see what it would make?

Luke Hawley: Yeah. Oh, I totally forgot about this. So Suno had just come out, and we were. I just put the demo in.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah,

Luke Hawley: and we got like three different versions back.

Laremy De Vries: Uh huh. All of which were like, I don't know.

Luke Hawley: Sounded kind of the same, and and

Laremy De Vries: we thought they were funny, but there was one note. D D D D. Like it's got this weird line in the bass, and we kind of loved it.

Luke Hawley: And the the lyric there is

Laremy De Vries: "The trouble with change."

Luke Hawley: "The trouble with change," and so right at "change." The chord changes, or the bass note changes at least, and that we did steal from AI. So we just were totally honest about this.

Laremy De Vries: But it was just kind of a funny, an uncanny, just overall experience.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, that's the the lesser known term, the uncanny overall experience.

Laremy De Vries: Well it wasn't just a valley, and then we went, because then we went up to the other side, and then there was another valley.

Mark Munger: The UOE.

Laremy De Vries: Anyway, but there is there is some AI influence on this song. Yeah,

Luke Hawley: Just this one. Yeah,

Mark Munger: Just this one?

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Munger: Okay.

Laremy De Vries: You sound like you believe us. We are 99. Like we are like mostly extremely anti AI.

Mark Munger: Mostly,

Laremy De Vries: Except for like

Mark Munger: One note,

Laremy De Vries: one absurdity. Yeah,

Mark Munger: Worked out. Yeah, yeah.

I wanted to say before we go to it, just one time, and it really means nothing. But I one of one of the lyrics from your last album that starts out a song is "The trouble with time," and now "it's the trouble with change." And I liked that phrasing and how you how you moved from one to the other.

Luke Hawley: It does feel like, and I've had a couple people tell us this. Like there are there are some real callbacks on this record to other work, and I think that's just like, just me going back to the same old...

Mark Munger: And I feel like it's a real dad way of starting a sentence. You know the trouble with yeah blah blah blah blah. It's solid.

Laremy De Vries: And you know time and change and you know now we're into like Heraclitus or something, right?

Luke Hawley: That's all right. Okay. All right. You can't step in the same river twice. That's the change in the time problem, right? Yeah, there we go. Perfect.

Mark Munger: Let's hear the music. All right. All right. Song two: "The Uncanny Valley."

Good deconstruction at the end.

Laremy De Vries: We famously don't know how to end songs.

Luke Hawley: Well, actually, I mean, we had a long conversation about ending that song earlier at like a more appropriate spot.

Laremy De Vries: And I think at one point we thought we were just going to do a fade out, just because we've never tried that before, like a like a real classic '80s kind of fade out. But Christian was adamant that that whole business stay in.

Luke Hawley: He was still mad that we had used AI for one part, and it felt like the end was the least AI thing you could possibly do. Like it's just Brody making weird honking sounds on a saxophone, and and and Christian playing a dance beat or something.

Laremy De Vries: But it's really hard for us to know how to get out of a song. You know,

Mark Munger: I do feel the fade out is kind of a cop out.

Laremy De Vries: I know for sure. Yeah, but we were gonna, you know, sort of do it ironically one time, like one one AI note, one fade out. Like we have rules, and then we have to break them just once.

Mark Munger: This is a live edition of SPM PM. I'm your horse, Mark Munger. I'm joined by Laremy De Vries and Luke Hawley of the Ruralists. Jake Miller, bassist, is in the audience.

Luke Hawley: So is Brody. So is Brody. I can't.

Mark Munger: I can't see that way. I can see. Yeah, my eyes and my neck don't work as well as they used to. But I welcome Brody. It's nice to meet you. We we are live from the Back Back at the Fruited Plain in Sioux Center. We're listening to the new album by the Ruralists, and we just heard the song Uncanny Valley.

Luke Hawley: Do we need to do the call sign at any point? Because Laremy loves doing the call sign.

Mark Munger: The legal ID?

Luke Hawley: Yeah, the legal ID. Yeah, yeah.

Mark Munger: Yeah, it happens at the top of the hour, so I'll give you the I'll give you the cue.

Luke Hawley: Okay, perfect.

Mark Munger: It's coming up. Stay stay where you are. You're gonna you're gonna hear it. The next song on the album is "Fortune Cookies."

Luke Hawley: Yeah. So I want to just real quick the the last line of "Uncanny Valley" is, "Oh God, it's complicated," which is the first line of the song, "Right?" Which is, like we, play at the end of every show, essentially. So there's that that conversation about callbacks was, I should have been ready for that.

"Fortune Cookies," I don't, I don't know... what I can tell you is that we put this song together, and then at some point, I thought, we should have our neighbor and friend Jason Vanderbrake, who is a professional voice actor.

Laremy De Vries: You should check out his IMDb page; it'll blow your mind. Just,

Luke Hawley: just say all the lyrics in like,

Laremy De Vries: In like an old-timey radio voice. That was like our original idea.

Luke Hawley: That was it, and I. He sent me two versions, and I essentially used both of them all the time. And when I brought it to like to practice, which was us listening to the album, essentially, I played it for everybody, and we were like we were in tears about it because it was so delightful and hilarious and bizarre and, and somebody, I can't remember who, kept saying like, "Well maybe we should cut that part out." And we were like, "Nope! It all stays!"

Laremy De Vries: Three more dB please crank that.

Mark Munger: Okay, so this is, I actually I made a note that there's this voice muttering in the background

Luke Hawley: Yes, that's that's a professional voice actor, Mark. Be careful.

Mark Munger: Yeah, I know.

Laremy De Vries: But kind of in this term, you know, again, the song starts with this like seems like all the news is bad news, right? Yes. And so the, I mean, it's kind of been a weird, I don't know, a running joke for our entire existence, but like you know, just the classic like, oh, the humanity, like when the Hindenburg is going down, so just this all the news is bad news. We wanted to like get that kind of old timey radio, like

Mark Munger: It does have that announcer. Yeah, you did a very good job. You really pulled this off.

Luke Hawley: He really did do a great job.

Mark Munger: Yeah, and well, this is again, universe is expanding, and you're hoping that the center can hold. I mean, this is another continuation of this idea that you.

Laremy De Vries: But there's still like a weird like disbelief in science there, right? Like, at least that's what I'm told. That's what I'm told. Yeah, "I don't know if I really believe this, but you know, that's what Neil deGrasse Tyson says. I guess." "That's what Shannon Fisher says, I guess."

Luke Hawley: I think I'm always writing songs that get the like precipice of hope, right? Just like, I mean, that I guess maybe hope is a precipice, right? Like you just expect that things are going to go terribly at some point, or they're going to, yeah, all fall apart. And I just want to hold on to the idea that, like, maybe, maybe the center will hold. I actually, this is this partially came from a sermon too. I should apparently go to church more often. This guy Joel, who was our pastor for a long time, said one time in his sermon, "Let's start with sticking together," and that was that was the the impetus for this song, sort of like what does it mean to even, though everything looks really terrible, like what does it start? What does it mean to to start with sticking together and try try to hold the center?

Mark Munger: And it was again one of those those moments where I felt like this is really a great album for our times.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah,

Mark Munger: I find myself thinking of these same these same thoughts.

Luke Hawley: You're not alone, Mark. We're there with you.

Mark Munger: I'm glad to not be alone.

Laremy De Vries: And the Girlists are on here too. There's a lot of lot more oohs. We have they ooh and ah a lot.

Luke Hawley: I don't think they... I don't think they.... Do they ooh once on this one. They're out there. They don't they don't remember.

I was really the oohing and ahing was like I would press record and say, "Sing this note," and then they would sing that note, and then I would say, "Okay, now sing this note." So it wasn't. It wasn't

Laremy De Vries: Are you doing this like on an old like cassette.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, I'm just I don't know. I'm pressing an analog button to record, apparently.

Mark Munger: It's coming through on the radio. People are seeing it in their mind, the theater of the mind. Yes.

So shall we hear this? It's "Fortune Cookies." Let's break it open.

SPM PM. We are live from the Fruited Plain in Sioux Center with the Ruralists. Not all of them.

Luke Hawley: Not all of them.

Mark Munger: But a couple of them on stage. Luke Hawley, Laremy De Vries. Thank you so much for letting us be here and introducing your album to us and with us.

That was "Fortune Cookies," the third song on the on the new album. We were talking during the song. It sounded like you were thinking...

Luke Hawley: Yeah, I I just I can't remember how the interlude part and the outro part, like how they got put together. I don't. We make these songs, and sometimes I think, like, man, that is a weird decision that we made, and I can't for the life of me remember why we made it or how we made it.

I was also thinking while that was playing, like, I think I think that song is so delightful. Like, it makes me laugh every time. I don't know that that actually makes it a very listenable song for people. I'm hoping that it does, but like this album more than the other ones feels like it is a string of inside jokes sometimes. But anyway, we're having a good time.

Mark Munger: Yeah.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, and that sounds like they're like... I mean they are inside jokes, but it's also just kind of like...

Luke Hawley: That song literally ends with Jason saying, "Thanks for thinking of me, Luke."

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, like if you don't know anyway, it's...

Luke Hawley: I mean, we probably should have cut that too, but we thought no, we'll keep it for sure.

Laremy De Vries: It is. It is just like a, you know, a particular interesting weird artifact.

Luke Hawley: All right.

Mark Munger: I like hearing that.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah.

Mark Munger: Personally, I mean, I feel like you're bringing people into into your life in a way that's that's enjoyable. Well, even if I don't know exactly what it signifies,

Luke Hawley: And we, I think more than ever, this one I felt like we were making it for the people that we know instead of like, you know, we're at an age where it's not, like nobody's going to pick us up to be the opener on some national or worldwide tour. Like we're just making music here in the Back Back, making it happen for the people that we know. And I think we tried to lean into that really hard.

Mark Munger: Well, I mean, I think a lot of people will like it as they as they hear it. I don't think you should. I don't think you should stop hoping that other people will like it. But but at the same time, I think making something for the people you know and love is is is the most valuable thing you can do.

Luke Hawley: I agree.

Mark Munger: So so I think it's exciting and it's a wonderful maturity for a group of artists to arrive at.

Luke Hawley: We've taken a long time to get there, but yeah,

Mark Munger: You know, if you would have gone to church more. Maybe you'd have 12 songs.

Luke Hawley: Oh, that's so funny because I was like, I did not want there to be 11 songs on the record. I'm like, I wanted 10 or 12, and not 11 felt real weird. But so I really appreciate you needling us. Yeah, that's good.

Mark Munger: Prime are no good for....

Luke Hawley: What a mess! What a mess!

Mark Munger: You can't divide it.

So the next one, I well, just to say, "Fortune Cookies," I think as far as the tone of the album goes, I mean, it really picks things up and moves. On a third song, it's such a nice change in pace. And then the the following song "Human Condition," it sounds like a Tom Waits inspired song. I mean, it's a real it's a real it's a real stomper. Yeah. But the other thing that comes with it that is notable as I listen to it, is the bowling sounds?

Laremy De Vries: Yeah. So

Mark Munger: Is this like a Big Lebowski, sort of move?

Luke Hawley: Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, what happened was we recorded the whole. So I mean, we worked on it for for weeks because it it is really far outside of sort of what we generally do, and we worked on it for a long time, and then. We recorded it, and then Laremy was like, "You know what this song needs?"

Laremy De Vries: I am a big fan of The Big Lebowski, and it just kind of seemed I don't even know. Like, there's not really a capital like a big "Why? Like it was just kind of like, yeah, it was fun. It's a fun song, and it felt like it needed to have a little more fun with it, or something like that.

Mark Munger: I mean, there's no more fun lyric than, "We're barely holding on down here."

Laremy De Vries: Well, yeah, for sure, for sure. Well, that's just the whole like you know, "Doctor, doctor, give me the news." Like, it's it's a kind of form that we don't usually go into. A kind of classic. I mean, maybe I don't know. That's like a bluesy form or something like that, but you know, "I called the doctor and the doctor said," and then it's got some weird, like almost like klezmer vibes. And I'm playing baritone guitar on this, so that just gives it different kind of vibes too. And so,

Luke Hawley: And Brody brought a baritone sax, like for that big like blatty, low end sound and yep yep

Mark Munger: It's a wonderful sound. I I really... the bowling goes so nicely.

Laremy De Vries: It does I agree it works yeah

Luke Hawley: I think he's underselling how excited he was about it oh yeah.

Laremy De Vries: And then, you know, usually when I have these absurdist ideas, like, I don't know, I just, I don't want to say get ignored, but I get appropriately.

Luke Hawley: He does get ignored quite a bit. We're we're like, okay, why not? I mean, there is a lot. A lot of this album is like, okay, why not? Yeah, like you know, I just

Laremy De Vries: And often that goes the other way, too. Like other people have absurd ideas that I ignore, but you guys all like.

Luke Hawley: Yes.

Laremy De Vries: Um. So I'm usually you know whatever the odd man out with the crazy ideas, but

Mark Munger: tell me more about how you feel.

Laremy De Vries: That's what we're doing here. The guest horse and guest therapist.

Mark Munger: Speaking of, this is a live program. We're in the Fruited Plain in the Back Back in Sioux Center with the Ruralists Laremy De Vries and Luke Hawley. The song we're about to hear is "Human Condition," and it's it's from your your album that's just now out. So why don't we go to that? Let's let's hear "Human Condition."

"Human Condition" by the Ruralists. I'm your horse Mark Munger. I am live with Luke and Laremy of the Ruralists in the Back Back, your your home territory.

Laremy De Vries: Indeed.

Mark Munger: For the show, we're having an album release party. We have fine friends of the band in the audience. It's so nice that people turned up to to listen to hear.

Luke Hawley: They came from Chicago, so.

Mark Munger: People came from Chicago. It's a long way. You actually did? Well, welcome back here. Yeah, that's a that's a good distance to to come, but worth it. What a great...

Luke Hawley: You could have just streamed it online.

Laremy De Vries: Wouldn't be the same.

Mark Munger: I mean, you know, don't tell him that. So that was the "Human Condition" with the bowling and all.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say the so the last verse is, "I caught my neighbor out in the yard. I thought I should tell him about life being hard." This is this is my neighbor Jason Leaf, who's also here tonight. Who shows up in... I mean, this is a this is a fictionalized account. I don't know this ever happened exactly in this way, but he also shows up on the last record where he tells me about the word apophatic, which I don't actually say in the song, but this is another example of like all of these, all of these people on our block and in our life that continue to sort of affect the things that we do, and not just in church, all right?

Laremy De Vries: Sometimes you know they use admonition in their backyard together as well, you know, or presupposition, or you know,

Luke Hawley: I did have fun. I mean, the rhyming in that song is kind of true. So yeah,

Laremy De Vries: a game of Twister or something.

Luke Hawley: Yep, that's good.

Mark Munger: I don't. I've lost track of what we're talking about.

Luke Hawley: It's hard to rhyme with "condition." Yeah, so that's...

Laremy De Vries: There are three words: physician, presupposition, and admonition. And those are the only three words in the entire English... No, I'm just joking.

Luke Hawley: Rhyme zone will give you way more.

Laremy De Vries: I know.

Mark Munger: Rhyme Zone?

Luke Hawley: yeah. Yeah.

Mark Munger: Okay.

Luke Hawley: For sure.

Mark Munger: I do like, "got to feeling desperate, so I called a priest. A real hail Mary, to say the least." That's a that's a solid line.

Laremy De Vries: That is a good line.

Luke Hawley: Thanks.

Mark Munger: You're welcome.

Luke Hawley: I really, "it was a real hail mary, if you know what I mean." And Laremy was so mad because I had skipped a rhyme, "to say the least." I just want to give him credit

Laremy De Vries: . I'm holding up your rules in front of you. You're the rhymer. You're the one who goes to Rhyme Zone. And I think that "least' and "priest" are probably listed closer.

Luke Hawley: They are much closer. Yes, they're real rhymes.

I'm not sure why I didn't go to that, except that I needed Laremy to get me there. Aapparently,

Mark Munger: You two worked well together.

Laremy De Vries: We try.

Mark Munger: Yeah. 10 years because it's a long relationship.

Luke Hawley: It is, and I mean,

Mark Munger: In a band. I mean, you guys have been together longer than that as a band, but that's that's a good.

Luke Hawley: Just barely. Yeah, yeah. 10 years, and yeah, and a month or something like that. But yeah, it is a long time. So,

Mark Munger: Which brings us to our next song, "Planned Obsolescence," which is, you know I think a lot of good philosophy comes from a dental chair. Yeah, that's really a time when you you wonder what this is all about.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, I... this I mean this really was like I so I was saying earlier part of this record was sort of just letting let I mean the record is letting go, but part of that was letting go of my some of my rules and some of my standards and some of my about songwriting and just trying to be a little bit more free and easy. And so, I mean, that's this song, right? Like, I think even five years ago, I would have been like, "You should not mention the dentist in a song. That should be a rule about songwriting: Don't talk about the dentist." But, whatever. At this point, you know, it is like nothing reminds you that you're going to die more than going to the dentist. Like I'm like, really, like your teeth are going to fall out and you're gonna and you're gonna die. And so it was. I just wanted to find a way to capture that.

Mark Munger: Well, you did. You did a good job of it? And being, I also want to die when I'm in the dentist. Please, End it.

Laremy De Vries: You know what they say? Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Guest horse in the mouth, something like that. Yeah.

Mark Munger: A gift horse. Yeah, that's true.

Laremy De Vries: You're the horse.

Mark Munger: I try to be. I... Let's go to the music. Yeah. Let's let the music do the talking.

Luke Hawley: All right.

Mark Munger: "Planned Obsolescence" by the Ruralists. Wow, who's playing that ending?

Luke Hawley: That's Brody Joens.

Mark Munger: Solid.

Luke Hawley: So nice. Yeah, yeah.

Mark Munger: Keep your saxophonist close.

This is a live SPM PM. I'm your horse, Mark Munger. We are enjoying our time with the Ruralists tonight with an album release party from the Backpack, the Back Back, not the Backpack, the Back Back in in Sioux Center. The album is called Letting Go. That song was called "Planned Obsolescence," and it was number. It was we're right in the middle of the album now. Yeah. Oh, we've timed this. We're in the meat of this album.

Luke Hawley: I was worried that we were going to talk too much, and you've done a really good job of keeping us.

Mark Munger: I've been talking my talking to myself a lot before this. You know, "I got to rein them in."

Laremy De Vries: That's right. That's right. Absolutely. We trust Mark Munger.

Mark Munger: Well, that's kind. That's nice. That's the fine. One of the finer compliments I've ever I've ever received.

Luke Hawley: I was just thinking that the end of that song takes forever, and maybe all of these long endings are also like parallel with the title of the album of Letting Go. Like we're just having trouble finishing things. Want to hold on to it for a long time. Maybe that's too much, but I'd never thought about that before.

Mark Munger: I was thinking as I was listening this time, as we listened through, that like these endings are really starting to.... They're sounding like there's a theme in the end, just in the end.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, there's like a they kind of devolve, right? And then that's

Mark Munger: You're crashing into chaos and then sort of regrouping as you go into the next song, yeah.

Laremy De Vries: Ash to ash and dust to dust, right?

Mark Munger: Yeah, you know, you lose your teeth and that's it.

Luke Hawley: What's more Ecclesiastes than the dentist, You know?

Mark Munger: I don't know enough about the Bible to respond to that.

Luke Hawley: You're right. You like Ecclesiastes. If you like the Ruralist, that there's a... If you like the Ruralist, you'll Love Ecclesiastes!

That is accurate and weird. One time, I mean, early in the existence of the ruralist, somebody said described us as playing jaunty little songs about death, and it feels like it's always, always accurate. So Ecclesiastes is not exactly a jaunty little book about death, but you know...

Laremy De Vries: It's a little jaunty. It's got some fun, you know, "To everything, turn, turn."

Luke Hawley: I mean, The Byrds, right? There is a season.

Laremy De Vries: Talk about jaunty? Wait till we get out our 12 string Rickenbacker, then it will really be jaunty!

Mark Munger: Yeah. Well, I am. I am looking forward to that. This is a good time for the legal ID, which will be performed by Laremy De Vries tonight. If

Laremy De Vries: If I can have everyone's attention, you're listening to K W I T Sioux City, K O J I Okoboji.

Mark Munger: We are now legal, so thank you very much. Yeah, yeah. The FCC requires that once an hour, at the top of the hour.

Luke Hawley: It never gets old.

Mark Munger: So everybody's in on the the gig. Yes. So again, this is a live SPM PM from the Back Back in the Fruited Plain in Sioux Center. I'm your horse Mark Munger, and I have as my guests tonight Laremy De Vries and Luke Hawley.

The new album from the Ruralists is Letting Go, and we're we're we're letting it out onto the airwaves for the first time this evening. Yeah, awesome. We talked about that, and we have a live audience here. It's been so much fun, and and I even in that last song, I heard people singing along with with parts of it. Early on in our relationship, which is now over 10 years, you know, I came to a show here, and I was so moved by how much you engaged with the audience and how much the audience engaged with you. And as I listen to your albums now, I think of that, and now how you, I guess, maybe write in a way that goes to people. I mean, you like you know that this might be a communal experience with the lyrics.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, at at our when we put out Trying, whatever that was, a couple years ago, at our CD release where we all lived in the same town and were able to play it live. At the end of the show, apparently, I said, "I hope this is helpful." And I didn't know that.... I didn't know that I said it until somebody pointed out later. Justin Bailey, the guy that was preaching for that first line.

Laremy De Vries: All of the stories are about, you know, mostly the same people.

Luke Hawley: But I do, I do feel like that is. I think that's central to what I'm always trying to do when I write a song. Like I want it, I want it to be helpful. I think about all the songs that are so helpful for me, that I think of in moments when I, yeah, when I need them or to sort of see the world in different way, and I, that is what I would like to provide to other people. And so when people sing along, like there is not a greater compliment in the world. And to hear them sing along to, "I keep forgetting that I'm dying," is like extra, extra great. Like you you know if you can make that line into a singable line, then you know then you've really done something.

Laremy De Vries: And we have great fans too. Yeah, it is like it's it's been beyond our ability or comprehension or hopes or anything like that. The amount of people that have just kind of gathered in this place for our band, but for others' bands, like Damon's played a lot of shows here. We talked about our daughters' band, daughters... It's I don't know how to plural and possessive that, but you know what I mean. Daughters's?

Luke Hawley: Or, you know, Christian, who's been our drummer for since he was 15. Like the music that he puts out is astounding. And we like to think that part of the reason he puts out music at all is because we built this weird little place full of these wonderful people,

Laremy De Vries: And it's been a community that's obviously been much beyond us, right?

Mark Munger: Yeah.

Laremy De Vries: So,

Mark Munger: Well, I tell that story of that of that show. Yeah... Clap for everybody. Good job, everybody! I tell that story to everybody. Like I've told that story 1000 times over the over the last 10 years of that show of what it was like and the community and you know this place and how special it is, it's something people should aim for.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, I totally agree, and we try not to take it for granted. You know.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, really try to be grateful for it.

Mark Munger: Yeah, well, I'm grateful that I get to have that experience with you tonight and in the past, and it's made a lot of, a lot of meaning for me, and I think let's go to the next song. "What's the use in keeping it connected if it's it's always crumbling?" I think, you know, again you're asking that question, and coming back to those feelings, like, well it is in these relationships we built, and the the experience we have together.

Now that I'm thinking of it, there is a sort of, when one is alone and and and then they begin to question things. But when one is with others, like the answers seem to come, and I think that's throughout the album.

Laremy De Vries: You really should read Ecclesiastes. It's a whole bit about that.

Luke Hawley: I mean that yeah, that is...

Laremy De Vries: "If one falls down, the other can lift him up." It's right there.

Luke Hawley: There's, there's a, yeah, there's a lot of that. I mean, I, yeah, that's great. One quick story about the song before you play it. Our neighbor, who doesn't officially live on First Ave, but sort of around the corner, Al Banstra, who is a beloved.

Laremy De Vries: Sixth grade sixth grade

Luke Hawley: science teacher. We found out that he like had spent COVID learning how to play the harmonica.

Laremy De Vries: How did we find this out?

Luke Hawley: I don't even. Brody's girlfriend is Al's daughter, so this was there is a there is a connection there somewhere.

Laremy De Vries: I hope somebody at home has all like the red threads going through. Here's a new character! All right.

Luke Hawley: This is a song that I wrote probably 20 years ago, and I played it one time acoustically, and and my dear friend and neighbor Jason Leaf was like, "That song. I love that song." And and it felt like thematically it fit with everything else, and so I sort of knew we wanted to put it on this record, and then I thought,

Laremy De Vries: "Yeah,

Luke Hawley: Al should play the harmonica for sure." Is his birthday today? 60 years old Oh, happy birthday, Al!

Laremy De Vries: Brilliant!

Luke Hawley: That's amazing. 60 years old. That's

Mark Munger: terrific.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, that is terrific. What what what brilliant timing?

Laremy De Vries: And so we, you know, I was thinking during the last song, like, stylistically, this, I mean, we're always all over the map, but this probably even more so. We're all over the map, stylistically.

Luke Hawley: This album is it?

Laremy De Vries: Yeah. Yeah. And so this one, we just like really just leaned into that kind of, you know, kind of Willie Nelson harmonica, kind of you know, just just be country, you know.

Luke Hawley: And he had never played harmonica like in front of other people, really. And we were like, here's a microphone, just do it.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah,

Luke Hawley: it was it was really wonderful to watch him like anxiety.

Laremy De Vries: Our friend Damon is here, and Al had recorded some harmonica with David... with Damon. That was kind of his first little. Then he got the taste, and then he's like, had to come back for more.

Luke Hawley: He had like notes. Yeah, I mean, we don't really have notes. We don't read music. I mean, could sort of read music, but like, he had written out in a notebook like what the notes he was going to play, and it was just the most delightful thing. Yeah, excellent. Yeah.

Mark Munger: Well, let's hear it with with many happy returns on the day. "What Holds Us Together?"

S.P.M. P.M. That was a that was a song called "What Holds Us Together" from the Ruralist's new album Letting Go. I'm joined by Laremy De Vries and Luke Hawley of the Ruralists, as we have a fun little album release party here in the Backpack. Back Back.

Laremy De Vries: We're hearing the audience a little bit more and a little bit more in between each song. So it's good, right?

Luke Hawley: It's great. It's great. We're glad you're here.

A... an unknown fact about that song: the acronym of what holds us together is "WHUT," which is how it shows up on our set list all the time. So that's all.

Laremy De Vries: That's great. But like what? Like a teenage girl would spell like "what?" Like when you tell your kid to clean their room, they're like "what?"

Luke Hawley: We're an hour in and we've already lost anything to talk about.

Mark Munger: I can't control you guys anymore. It's over. I get to give up. That was great harmonica. The Willie Nelson connection is is is definitely there.

Luke Hawley: We saw Willie Nelson one time at Hinterland in in Des Moines. I think you and I were the only ones who stayed up for it. But he has a guy that just has harmonica.

Mark Munger: I've seen him a few times. And the first time I saw him, I think it was in a VFW somewhere in Texas, and I thought, "I didn't know the harmonica was so beautiful." It's so sad and wonderful, but yeah, plays wonderfully into into that, especially at Willie's minor keys. Yeah, in that song, it's it's you guys really do country well. Should have done an all country album. Yeah, it could have been.

Luke Hawley: We used to say of the Realists that like it was this weird Venn diagram with me and Laremy and Jake and Christian. Of course, really were the only music where we overlapped was the music that we made together. Like otherwise, we you know we all sort of listened widely to other things, and I think that has allowed us to sort of stretch the like, and you know in some ways this is the most Ruralist of Ruralist records, but it also is also like it's just beyond what I ever imagined being able to make really. So yeah, and that one's a good example.

Mark Munger: You had mentioned that before we listened to the song too that you felt freer. Yeah, you know, and you let go of some of your songwriting rules, and that's noticeable when you're listening to it. There is a freedom that's that's a part of the listening experience too, as you go through.

Laremy De Vries: Like like free fall or freedom.

Mark Munger: Freedom. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it feels spacious and open, and and and it brings you along with it. So, so coming up, the song "True Believer." Never been one or trusted one, but desire to have true beliefs. That's sort of the the idea in it, and it brings in the issues of faith that that are are in the album, too. You know, a questioning of faith, a questioning of of stories and meaning, and and you know how they fit into your life and whether or not they they ring true in your own experiences and and as you age,

Luke Hawley: Yeah, yeah, it changes as you age, right? Like, yeah, it does. I mean, your understanding of of really anything seems to change.

Mark Munger: Hopefully,

Luke Hawley: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah, stay open to that. Absolutely.

Mark Munger: Yeah. I mean, if I was stuck in my teenage years, you know, you wouldn't want to be on a stage with me.

Luke Hawley: I heard teenage Mark Munger was a hockey player, and I'm.

Laremy De Vries: Were you a goon or not?

Mark Munger: Was I a goon?

Luke Hawley: Were you a fighter, Mark?

Mark Munger: I was not. I was not a good. I was. I was. I was a good. I was decent at hockey, but I wasn't your. I. I can't say that I was. Yeah, I didn't fit the role. I was miscast as a hockey player.

Luke Hawley: Miscast as a hockey. hockey player. Yeah, so I I think originally when we started thinking about this record, this to me was was going to be the theme of the record. I was thought I was writing a bunch of songs about belief, and I really was writing a bunch of songs about belief. But this idea of what does it mean to be a true believer is is is pretty fascinating to me. Like some, they're kind of terrifying to me. But also, like I really believe in the community that I'm a part of, and in the in in making things just for the sake of making things. And so, obviously, I'm a true believer in some ways too. I'm always trying to put myself in the crosshairs of my complaints, and that was that's this song.

This is the first song in three records and three EPs that is just me and acoustic guitar. And I did not; it was not my idea. Like I didn't really want to. And I actually think it was Jake who was like, "Why don't we just put this on just like that?" And I felt uncomfortable about it because this has always felt like a like a band to me, like a collection of human beings making music. But they gave me the the go ahead, so I I said okay.

Yeah, I think it's a really important song for me. It's one I've been trying to write for a long time, I think, and I hope. It lands right in the middle of the record, and I hope that it sort of holds everything together in that way too. But yeah,

Mark Munger: Well, let's let's go to it, and let's let's hear a "True Believer" from the Ruralists off their new album, Letting Go.

SPM PM, True Believer from our guests tonight, the Ruralists, whom we're having a an album release party with here in the Back Back in Sioux Center at the Fruited Plain. I'm your horse, Mark Munger. Thanks for joining us for this live SPM PM. It's really a wonderful evening for me. It's nice to be around other people.

Luke Hawley: Instead of alone at the radio station.

Mark Munger: It's a it's a lonely job.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, yeah. We talked about a bunch of different like we were trying to figure out how to name the event, which ended up being A Live Listen with Luke and Laremy, which is nice, right? The alliteration, but we did talk about calling it like, Liner Notes Live, because that's what it feels like. It feels like we're just sort of adding onto, you know, you don't get liner notes really, in the world of streaming. So

Mark Munger: Yeah, that's one of the things we've we've let go by the wayside. But speaking of that, you can hear the whole album online. Yep. There is you you still have Fully Ruralized website that will lead you anywhere you need to go.

Luke Hawley: All the lyrics are up on the website now. I got a request from actually from Damon over there for all the lyrics, and so they're all up on the website now. But I think I think so.

Mark Munger: I think they are. I believe they are. I believe I saw them there. Yes, but you should fact check me.

So we are into the the back end of the of the album.

Luke Hawley: Yeah,

Mark Munger: And I think the tone has shifted there. You do have that solo song, "True Believer," and then and then from there, you you know, we're in a different place. How did that feel constructing the album? Did that did that was that intentional or did it sort of just happen as you were organizing the songs?

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, I mean, I had this weird, and I know this isn't like... I'm not trying to make a one-to-one comparison here, but of course, one of my because one of the best albums ever made is Abbey Road by the Beatles, and that song, like that album, like it's it's got these kind of like... "Maxwell Silver Hammer," "Octopus's Garden," like a kind of like just as like a little kind of free flowing, and then some of those like metally kind of you know "She Came The Bathroom Window," and then it sort of like comes into this like kind of more serious space, and then it sort of you know, and in the end, the love you take is equal to you know the whole you know that whole thing, and you know, and then it's got that weird little "Her Majesty's a Pretty Nice Girl" outro, and that's that's kind of how I would I don't know if that I think I said that. I don't know that I said that that specifically. Yeah, but it kind of so yeah that move from like, "Okay we're kind of being a little silly," but then it kind of moves there's there is a shift there,

And then I sort of consider "A Small, Good Thing" to be that that weird little quiet thing after the big you know, the big finish, and there's still this one more little gem at the end. So yeah, I think it was intentional the way that, I don't know that was intentional as we were recording the songs.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, no, I don't think so either. I mean, I think the track listing was, yeah, was after we had everything recorded. And because we are old and believe in the album, and we think about what does it mean to print vinyl, right? You think about two sides, and and and think about how to how to make those sides make sense, right? Like maybe you want to play the B side over and over and over and cry, like you know, or whatever, you know, whatever that is. Like, I think that was that was a part of it, trying to figure out how to, yeah, how to get from the rowdiness of the first half to some of the the sweetness, the bittersweetness of the second half.

Mark Munger: And I think there's an art to listening that that was taught by albums, and I think that you know if people can learn that still, it's worthwhile because there's a carrying of meaning beyond the single or beyond the song, and an evolution of that meaning or that emotion. And and that's it's so rewarding as a listener, and then it also builds that relationship with say the albums that you love. You know, you feel you can feel that like a like a novel or a story.

Luke Hawley: Also, this would have been a really lame event if we just like listened to one song and then it would have been over, right? Like you. You want the whole thing. I think you want the whole thing. Maybe you don't want the whole thing, but we do. You're getting it.

Mark Munger: Okay. Well, let's continue this story. "Forgiveness" is the next song. Is there anything you want to?

Luke Hawley: Yeah, this song is also about a neighbor who I can almost guarantee, without a doubt, is not listening to public radio.

Laremy De Vries: Only because he's reading a book.

Luke Hawley: No, he's not. I mean, maybe he is. I don't know. He's a guy that I know and is. You know, I mean loving your neighbor is hard to do.

Laremy De Vries: I'm thinking of a different person in this story.

Luke Hawley: Oh yeah yeah. No, and I often, I I had this dream that like, whatever, we hung out and there was this like moment of reconciliation where we sort of suddenly understood each other despite never actually ever understanding each other, and and I just wanted to take it from there. Like it is, it's hard. It it is a hard and long road to forgive people for just being people, right? And so that was yeah, that was where this one came out of.

Laremy De Vries: But I thought you were talking about your friend, the scientist, who...

Luke Hawley: No, that's that's on the last record. This one's for,

Laremy De Vries: okay, isn't that a part of this song?

Luke Hawley: No,

Laremy De Vries: okay.

Mark Munger: We can do this off air. This part.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, off air therapy is that we're doing. Yeah, I don't know.

Mark Munger: Let's go to "Forgiveness"

SPM P M. I am your horse, Mark Munger. I am joined by Laremy De Vries and Luke Hawley of the Ruralists for an album release party here in the Back Back in Sioux Center at the Fruited Plain, and it's been a wonderful hour plus so far. There's a few more songs to go. That song was "Forgiveness," which is, I think, a turn in sort of where you're looking throughout the album toward, like what, how can you forgive other people? Obviously, that's in the name and the difficulty in carrying that. But it's so poignant and well done. I think people, I myself, is I felt that how hard it can be, even when you want to. You want to move on, and you don't want, and also just not only just to because it feels like the thing you should do to be a good and decent person, but like just to let it go, right? Like yeah, yeah, yeah,

Luke Hawley: for sure, for sure.

Mark Munger: So,

Luke Hawley: a couple of notes on that one: the strings are played by Tony Garcia, who works here at the Fruited Plain, and

Laremy De Vries: Lovely guy. New dad just a month ago or so.

Luke Hawley: was teaching my son how to play cello until he stopped playing cello. But like, just a great anyway, our local string player. And then at the very end, "I hope we all sing all the parts," was most of the neighborhood gathered in the Back Back to sing, all sing all the parts. I was looking for this like what is what's the

Laremy De Vries: like Sacred Harp, you know that tradition.

Luke Hawley: And I was looking for a lot of voices to sing all the parts.

And the scientist that he was talking about before is in this song. I had just forgotten. It's my friend and colleague Jeff Ploegstra, who gives me fun facts about things all the time. He's a biologist.

Laremy De Vries: Fun facts about flowers.

Luke Hawley: Fun facts with with Jeff. Ooh, that was close. And he he tells...

Mark Munger: I had a little few palpitations.

Laremy De Vries: You got the you got your seven second delay there?

Luke Hawley: He he has this story that he tells about a about the word like the the etymology of the word apocalypse. And anyway, so my friend the scientist is a real. It's not a fake scientist. This is a real scientist that I know. Who's my friend.

Mark Munger: I think it's notable that so many stories that you tell are about other people in making this album, and that the events that are part of people's lives, the milestones. If we had a birthday earlier, you know, a new dad now, you know, and then to somebody who taught your son the cello, and I think I think it's it's just such a delight that that's all packaged in this album in a way that is sincere and intentional, and and and but also like a joy to listen to.

Luke Hawley: Thanks.

Mark Munger: Yeah.

Luke Hawley: I think like I honestly I think that song "Forgiveness" like it's crucial to the idea of trying to live closely with other people. Like the intertwined-ness of life, like requires extra grace and extra forgiveness from people towards people, from yourself towards yourself. Sometimes, yeah. So that's, I mean, that's one that functions as a reminder for me. I do go back. I don't listen to a lot of the songs we put out, but I do go back and listen to that as a as a reminder.

Mark Munger: Yeah. Oh, I think a lot of people could do that with that that song, Myself included. The the theme continues in in the next song, "Make." I don't know if we should go right to it or if you

Luke Hawley: Yeah, what I would say about this song is I was working on it and I just didn't like, I didn't quite, I didn't quite feel like I'd landed it and I brought it in, and I was like, "Yeah, I don't know. This this is the. It was the last one.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, I think it was.

Luke Hawley: The last song I wrote." And I was like, "This album requires one more song, an 11th song apparently." I was like, "I just knew it needed one more song." And I was like, "This is the one that I just wrote, and I don't know if I even like it." And I brought it in, and and the guys were like, "What's not to like?"

Laremy De Vries: Like I can't remember what the first song or the first line. You know, it's just this whole list of of make, right? You can make this, you can make that, and I can't remember what there was one of the lines.... Oh, this line about "making amends sure beats making new friends." And and I was just like, you know, I don't know. My thought wasn't if you have one good line, that's fine. But it was like something about that line like just sealed the whole thing for me.

Luke Hawley: And that was the line that I was like, I don't, I don't quite know, because rhythmically it's different than the first verse, and that really bothered me in my rules, right? Like that the the the rhythm and the beats have to be the same from verse to verse, and so, because I was in the spirit of letting go, and because they said that's the best line, I was like, okay, all right, let's go for it.

Laremy De Vries: Well, and this song is like, it it is the longest song on the record. It might be the longest song we've ever released. It might be,I don't know, I'm not going to go back and check. It might be, like, your most, like, unedited sort of stream of consciousness kind of a thing. Which, yeah, again, like there's a space, there's space in this song that is maybe atypical for us.

Luke Hawley: It's also the first song that I have ever convinced my wife to sing on. So we've been married for 20 years this summer, and and she sang on this. She made me like close the door and go in the other room and and sing it. And it was...

Laremy De Vries: And then broadcasted live on the radio. You know, like nobody can hear me do this. It was so great.

Luke Hawley: and it felt like, it felt like a full circle of some kind.

Laremy De Vries: Christian, I think I mean he plays some cello other places on this, but like the cello on this is beautiful.

Luke Hawley: Larry plays the banjo.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, Luke handed me this banjo and said do this, and I tried to tune it like a guitar, he said, "No, you have to tune it in this." And I was like, "I don't know how to do that." He's like, "figure it out."

Luke Hawley: Yeah. So,

Laremy De Vries: But that kind of adds to some of the space in the song as well. You know, there's not just like a constant drone of an electric guitar or something like that.

Mark Munger: My experience listening to the song the first time was, is that a banjo? Yeah. I clearly remember that feeling. Yeah, and yes, indeed. So I'm glad. I'm glad there's a banjo. Let's hear it. It's called "Make." It's right behind me.

This is SPM PM. You can go ahead and clap. That's perfectly perfectly acceptable.

Laremy De Vries: Somehow, it's easier to end songs when there's a cello playing. Like that, like the cello hitting that last note is just, just perfect.

Mark Munger: Yeah, it moves you out smoothly.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah,

Mark Munger: it's very nice. What a beautiful song.

Luke Hawley: It really like, I mean, I was telling you while I was playing, like the vocals and the guitar are the demo that I recorded to sort of just to lay down a scratch track, and it's this old '60s Stella Harmony that I bought for cheap, and Christian loved it, and he was like, "No, that's it. Let's just build around it." So we handed Larry the banjo. Brody plays the piano on it, really, really wonderfully, and everything just sort of fell into the right spaces. There's that that really sweet bass line in the middle. This is a... It just makes me think of... I've been really blessed to play with such kind and also excellent musicians for 10 years. That's been great.

Mark Munger: Yeah. The the line in there, "No one really knows why we're here. I've got more questions than answers year after year." I think, again, I think we talked a little bit about that idea before. Meaning changing each year. You know, asking the question again and again. But I know that that can feel fruitless, or or you know, bring you to an existential crisis of some sort, but but it is also... it seems like the beautiful way of living now that I'm this age. Like the the allowance of of returning to the same question, the allowance of of finding new answers.

Laremy De Vries: It's like an openness to, I don't know, there's a curiosity in that too, and just like I don't know, who knows?

Mark Munger: Yeah, yeah. Sort of a letting go of yourself. Your own demand to to understand or know, which is...

Luke Hawley: Like to follow up from earlier, the like ashes to ashes, dust to dust, right? Like if if we are, if our teeth are all just falling out, right? What are we left with except to, to, to make this thing and to keep asking the questions and to try to keep making different things and see what happens? And that really, I mean, I think that like, if someone were to ask me like, why have you played in the Ruralist for 10 years? There would be a lot of different answers, but one of them is just like I just need to make stuff, and I don't. It's the best way I know how.

Mark Munger: Yeah, what do you think that comes from? The need to make stuff.

Laremy De Vries: Do you? I mean, you have that too, right?

Mark Munger: I.

Laremy De Vries: You have the need to make radio.

Mark Munger: Yeah, I think that's how I got here. But one of those questions I ask myself year after year.

Laremy De Vries: I mean, I don't know. I just I like I feel like it's just part of what it is to be a human person. Like we just like that's what all of like culture is. What I mean that's what all of our work is, but you know, and I'm probably less need to make stuff musically than Luke. I'm I'm glad to like.

Luke Hawley: Yeah, but you need to make bagels.

Laremy De Vries: I do. I need to make bagels, and I needed to make the Fruited Plain in the Back Back. And I'm happy to, like, decorate your Christmas tree or whatever, like

Luke Hawley: Songs, songs of the Christmas tree.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, that's the metaphor.

Luke Hawley: That was confusing.

Mark Munger: This is a service you provide?

Laremy De Vries: We'll cut it. We'll chop it. Yeah, I don't know. This is like we all need to make stuff, right? And then, and then there's the line after that, like more questions, but like, you know, if meaning is, if we're making that meaning, then just to kind of like plop yourself down in a place and make it, you know, obviously Luke and his wife singing that.

Luke Hawley: "I want to make it with you."

Laremy De Vries: That "make it with you" means one kind of a thing, but like making music with this group of people means something. Making you know,

Mark Munger: I just got it.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, I was before before Sarah said that. I was like, oh, you know, that part really needs a harmony. And then I was like, no, I don't. But you know, I mean, but it needs something. But like, it really can't be me.

Luke Hawley: He didn't want to sing along with me.

Laremy De Vries: So I was I was glad that Luke cajoled his wife into singing on that. That was great. Yeah, much more appropriate. Although I don't think kids. I don't think if you're under 40 that you...

Mark Munger: Whatever.

Laremy De Vries: know what that means.

Mark Munger: You know what you do on your own time.

I I do think I do think that part of you know we live in a world where there is so much information until just like our bandwidth...

Laremy De Vries: So it's consumption.

Mark Munger: It's incredibly available. Whatever you want to ask, or you know there are answers ready to be provided, and

Laremy De Vries: a it is a yeah.

Mark Munger: But I think, but I think when you have a community, and and and other people that you're you're discussing, I mean, when I talk to you guys, you're always talking about the books you've read, the the stories you've heard, the the philosophies you're you're considering, and... but I think the making of out of that is sort of a respect for the quality of what you do consume and what you choose, and then like kind of a giving back to it.

Luke Hawley: And I think it's a it's a leaning into like your finitude, right? Like you got one shot. You got the time you got here. Like if you spend all your time thinking about a life that you don't have, you don't have a life, right? So you you lean into making your life with the people around you in the community that you have. Yeah, which takes us to our next song.

Mark Munger: "Coins in the Fountain."

Luke Hawley: Yeah, yeah. So I mean, the the you know the the refrain here is, I'm happy we've had the time that we've had, and this is you know there's a reference to like the Trevi Fountain here, and Sarah and I were in Rome for our 10th anniversary 10 years ago, and you know this idea of like throwing coins in a fountain. Like I, that's I want to make the wishes with you. You're the person that I, yeah, that I want to live my life with.

And this one is is the most, like, sort of specific love song on the record, but I think hopefully it still sort of resounds for for other people, too, and that idea of, yeah, of you only get so much time, and I'd like to spend it as best I can with with these people.

Mark Munger: Well let's hear "Coins in the Fountain."

SPM PM. I am your horse Mark Munger. We are live from the Back Back in Sioux Center in the Fruited Plain. Laremy De Vries and Luke Hawley are our guests for this wonderful live program. It's an album release party that we're having.

Luke Hawley: I'm sorry we only put albums out every three years. I'd love to do this more often.

Laremy De Vries: That's true.

Mark Munger: I know.

Laremy De Vries: Just write more songs.

Mark Munger: Yeah. I mean, I'm looking for something to do every night. So this really this is very helpful. Yeah, for the three-year thing, we got to talk about it.

That was "Coins in the Fountain," and another just lovely song. And again, this back half of the album is really... it's slowed down and it's you know introspective and and lovely. But you know it it never risks monotony. It's always yeah.

Laremy De Vries: I mean, there's definitely like

Luke Hawley: They're gonna write that on our tombstones. "The Ruralists never risked monotony."

Laremy De Vries: We were talking about like the girls. That was kind of like our opening up process. But like, just to think, what are all the things that we could cram into the end of the song there? And you know, one of the ones that sticks out the most was Luke's brother Caleb, who's a professional musician, like amazing guitar player, and we were just like, "Yeah, this really needs to have like, they call him "White Prince." They used to call him "White Prince."

Luke Hawley: I don't know who they are, and I don't know that it's accurate. He does love Prince. Yeah, yeah.

Laremy De Vries: Okay, Jake calls him White Prince. Anyway, we were.

Luke Hawley: And I call, I email them, and I was like, "Hey, we got this song. Can you can you play something Prince like at the end of it?" And what was actually amazing about the experience is, I, we had a misunderstanding of where it went in the song, and so I put it probably a full minute earlier, and I was like, "I."

Laremy De Vries: We were all like,

Luke Hawley: "No, he made a mistake." Yeah.

Laremy De Vries: Like this is terrible.

Luke Hawley: and I now have to go back to my brother and be like, "Sorry, bud, like we're not going to use it." But eventually, we figured out it was supposed to go at the end.

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, shove it down a few bars, and then it was absolutely perfect.

Luke Hawley: Yeah,

Laremy De Vries: But that's just yeah. I mean, just one more little, you know, just a little surprise, right? Even in the midst of what might seem like a slower song, you know?

Mark Munger: Sonically it continues to be really interesting.

Laremy De Vries: I mean one of our other, at least for me, like inspired, like the the song "The End" by Phoebe Bridgers, like that kind of starts off, and then it just, I wanted to figure out, you know, how do we open this up as much as possible? We went to Dordt and snuck into the band room and recorded the big like chimes,

Luke Hawley: Like that Smashing Pumpkin song.

Laremy De Vries: Like that Smashing Pumpkin song.

Mark Munger: Well, I I would love to keep talking about the song, but but we're coming up against the end of this hour, and and we have one more song, on on the album. I mean, thank God you didn't do 12.

Luke Hawley: I know, right? I knew I was doing 11.

Mark Munger: You were right. Yeah. Yeah. All that grief we gave you was we were wrong. We apologize.

Luke Hawley: So the last one is is a song actually on another album that I released at the same time, which is a whole bunch of Raymond Carver stories turned into songs, and so this is this the story "A Small, Good Thing," but but this version we invited the neighborhood to the Back Back to to sing along this chorus, which feels very much like a Fruited Plain chorus. Like, this is what it means to get together and to break the crust and to pour the coffee and to....

Laremy De Vries: The first time I heard the song, I was like, "This feels like my eulogy." And then, you know, I'm like, "I'm not dead yet," but you know, so that...

Mark Munger: It'll happen.

Luke Hawley: I mean, your teeth will fall out and you will die..

Laremy De Vries: I said, like, I felt like Tom Sawyer, like sneaking into my own funeral, where they're just talking about like coffee and cinnamon rolls, and like, and then I read the story, and I was like, "Oh, okay, like I get it now."

Luke Hawley: Everybody should read it. It's great..

Mark Munger: Okay, "Small Good Thing," from the Ruralists' new album, Letting Go. Let's hear it.

SPM PM. That was the Ruralists, the last song from their brand new album, Letting Go. The Ruralists are Luke Hawley, Laremy De Vries, Jake Miller, Christian Lief, and Brody Joens. Jack Underwood has been our engineer tonight. That's been he's done a great job. So thank

Luke Hawley: Thanks, Jack!

Mark Munger: Thanks so much, Jack. I think that's such a beautiful song. It's really just I don't know what else to say. It's just a beautiful song, and everything about it I think captures who you guys are. And like you said, that that chorus is such a Ruralist chorus, and perfectly written and and perfectly sung by your friends and your band.

Laremy De Vries: Absolutely.

Mark Munger: It's great. You want to do the the legal ID?

Laremy De Vries: This is K W I T Sioux City, K O J I Okoboji. I just want to say the numbers and then I forget which.

Mark Munger: You can.

Laremy De Vries: Well I know, but I don't know the numbers for Okoboji, and then I'm at...

Mark Munger: 90.7.

Laremy De Vries: 90.7.

Mark Munger: So if you're in the lakes, that's where you can go. You can always listen online at kwit.org, or use the app. And we do have a new music service. So if you like listening to music all day long, anywhere you go without commercials, it's available on our app or on our website. It's called SPM Music. So check it out. You'll hear the Ruralists amongst it. So thanks for making this night possible.

Luke Hawley: Well, Mark, thank you so much for coming out. Like this has been a dream come true.

Mark Munger: Well, so it's it is it's truly truly meaningful for me to get to be a part of what you guys do. So thanks a lot. And ever since the beginning...

Laremy De Vries: Yeah, since the beginning.

Mark Munger: Yeah, and I hope that you do make more music.

Luke Hawley: We will. We will.

Laremy De Vries: You know, we just we don't know what it looks like yet.

Mark Munger: Yeah. Well, that's a good way to go. Absolutely. All right. Well, thank you, and thanks everybody for coming out. This has been so much fun.