We spoke with Chris Winkel, from Knife River, Dolf Ivener, the landowner, and Mayor Bob Scott. Below is the transcript of the conversations, edited in places for readability.
Mark Munger
Whether Knife River may rezone a piece of land off 41st Street between Floyd and Highway 75 in Leeds will come before Council this Monday. To get a better understanding of the issue, I first spoke with Chris Winkel, a general manager of Knife River in Sioux City, to understand the proposed plans and reasons for identifying this particular piece of land.
Alright. Thanks again, Chris. So this the project is the possible rezoning of the land in Leeds? What I'm reading is that Council was considering an asphalt plant? Is that no longer the case?
Chris Winkel
That was kind of the first thought that we were going to relocate the majority of our operations there. But then, based on some feedback from local residents and some input, they were against the asphalt plant, and then also they were concerned about dust from the crushing. So we, you know, based on that input, we said, "Okay, can we, can we keep those operations down in our current facility at Hawkeye Drive to try to, you know, address some of those concerns?" Now, I mean, our asphalt plant, it... I mean, everything we're doing is in compliance. But we thought, you know, just to address some of those concerns, that would still work for our operations. Because the main thing was the aggregate yard, that was the main impetus of the project. And so we had made some of those concessions in an effort to get that site rezoned.
Mark Munger
And so right now, the plant, if the site is rezoned, let's say, and you do acquire the land, it would be an aggregate site.
Chris Winkel
Yep. It would be an aggregate site. And then we, we still propose to put a ready-mix plant there as well.
Mark Munger
Okay, and what is that? As someone who knows nothing about this, what does that entail?
Chris Winkel
So it is a plant that makes concrete. So like, you'll see the mixer trucks driving around town with the drums on them? And the ready-mix plant is like, basically, a low or no emissions plant.
Mark Munger
Is there noise associated with it, or anything that would be considered a nuisance?
Chris Winkel
The only thing with a site is you would have, certainly, you would have truck traffic. But fairly low noise. I mean, you'll have the truck sound. But, certainly, given all the other activity in that area with trucks at the other industrial facilities there, I don't know that it would be a big impact. And certainly the train traffic and the noise with those, and we operate during normal hours. So it's not like we're running at night, or, you know, all of our operations are during the daytime.
Mark Munger
I know that the mayor has said that he's not opposed to the idea of your having a place for these operations. But he thinks that this particular place is just not the right place at the moment. Is there something particular about this place that makes you want to use this site?
Chris Winkel
Well, it's centrally located within the Siouxland community, and it is a good access to truck routes such as Business 75 and the bypass. So it's got really good access to those routes. The size of the parcel is large enough to accommodate our operations. It's often difficult to find parcels of that size. And then the rail access.
Mark Munger
Yeah I was wondering if rail access was a big part of it.
Chris Winkel
Yeah, definitely. I mean you as a, you know, an aggregate yard, you always want to have access to rail. So that's, that's one of the needs there, and just, again, the size, and then the central location.
Mark Munger
The issue has been raised that there is a monopoly on aggregate in the community. Is that correct? That Everest is the only one really supplying rock right now?
Chris Winkel
Yeah, this tri-state area based, you know what their operations are currently, you know, the only supplier in this area for hard rock.
Mark Munger
I did check on the cost of rock in Sioux City, and compared to the cost of rock in Sioux Falls, and it's definitely more expensive in Sioux City.
Chris Winkel
Yeah, when you bring in competition or more options, then you definitely see prices drop. I mean, we've started up a ready-mix plant here in Sioux City this year, and then the other competitors started lowering their prices. So more competition, there's more options, and that generally results in lower prices. So, yeah, I would, I would definitely anticipate a price drop.
Mark Munger
I know you can't know the hearts and minds of everybody living in Leeds, but I did know you had that public information evening, so I was wondering if maybe you'd heard if there was any change in tone.
Chris Winkel
Yeah, I mean, I talked to some folks individually to try to explain the site a little bit more, and ultimately, that with this zoning, it was, I believe it was stipulated that ultimately the Council would have to approve the final design layout of the site. So we would have to come up with a final design layout based on the citizens input and the Council's input, and then if the Council didn't like it, or they didn't feel like we were addressing all these concerns, they could deny, you know, deny the site design, and then rezone it back to commercial. That's my understanding.
Mark Munger
So this would just be one step forward, and then you'd still be dealing with the Council and the community even if it is rezoned.
Chris Winkel
Yeah. The Council would have to vote on the final site layout before we were able to proceed ahead. And then, yeah, and I know it's, it's definitely a balancing act with the Council and the citizens. And I do respect all the citizens of Leeds, and I think it's... obviously they're voicing their concerns. We're trying to address them. And I do respect them and how they've organized and brought forth their concerns. And it would be nice for folks to understand that we're trying to address those concerns, and I think we've made quite a few concessions already to try to make this work, but I guess we'll see where it goes Monday. Well, I just want to say we definitely want to continue to work with the City and citizens and try. You know, if this site doesn't work out, possibly there's another location or somewhere else that would be right and well, we will keep trying.
Mark Munger
Well, that's that good old American can-do spirit. I appreciate it, Chris. Thank you so much.
Chris Winkel
Okay, thank you, Mark.
Mark Munger
Having a better understanding of the project in mind, I went to meet Dolph Ivener, the present owner of the property in question, and to see the land itself.
To give a sense of the place, it is off Floyd Boulevard, which between much of downtown and Highway 75, defines the line between industry and residential. As you turn on to 41st Street, your rear view mirror frames the old Leeds commercial street and houses. A gas station is to your left and Dollar General to your right. In front of you is a railroad track, a field below the rise, and the large white storage tanks of Magellan Midstream, a pipeline corporation. It's the crossroads of many interests. Dolph Ivener owns the land.
Dolf Ivener
Alright, so this is some ground that I bought from Mr. Craig, maybe seven years ago. And Mr. Craig was in the rock business and the cement business, and this was kind of what he had envisioned for this property. And he had owned it for, I think, maybe 40 years since the late 60s. Yeah, he had Craco Asphalt. He was an industrial guy in town. Anyway, he had the property. I bought it seven years ago. I've owned it and farmed it. And then I was approached by Knife River a few months ago to purchase the property.
And little did I know when they came to purchase the property, how much Mr. McGuire's 10th grade Civics class about the monopolies and railroads would come into play in my, you know, in my 50s, right? So they approached me to buy the property. I'm like, "Yep." It's a perfect location. It's got two railroad tracks on each side. One is a Union Pacific. One is in Burlington Northern. It just so happens that Knife River has a quarry in Sioux Falls and Omaha, which, coincidentally, their rock is half the price of our rock, which is a key ingredient for making cement, you know, paving roads. So anyways, right now, our town has one supplier, LG Everest, of aggregate. And it's not coincidental, since we have a functional monopoly in town, that they're twice as expensive as the towns to the north and to the south. And kind of the kicker about LG Everest is, not only do they charge us double for the product, they block downtown every morning at eight o'clock, every evening at five o'clock. They can't bring those trains in at four in the morning and midnight. No way, this is when they're coming. So it leads us back to this property.
So Knife River, that's another company in town, has seen this play out, and they're a big industrial company. They understand railroads and logistics and all of these things, and that's why this piece of property is different than any other piece of property, literally, in the United States. The UP and the BN on each side of it, plus it's like 3500 feet long, so that it allows you to easily build and unload rail cars that won't block any traffic. So we're going to throw that out there for all of you downtown sitting in front of that LGEX red car. Just remember, if you buy Knife River cement, they won't be blocking you downtown, which is pretty cool.
Anyways, we started process, and my neighbors in Leeds, you know... at first Knife River came and said, "We're going to put an asphalt plant and do the whole thing." The neighbors complain. They're like, "No asphalt plant, no crushing of concrete. This is just an unloading of rock facility. That's all it's going to be." But that didn't seem to suffice with the neighbors. And the best I can tell from my neighbors is they love it being a soybean and corn field. I mean that is their ideal choice for it.
And I'm a farmer. I farm quite a little bit of land, and this ground is, it's like 90 CSR farmland. It's some of the best farm ground I have, but its production is always a little under par. And I have a way to solve that, and it's not with commercial fertilizers. I solve it with hog manure. If you put hog manure on ground like this, it'll really respond. And I just so happen to have two hog confinements eight miles from this location. And if I'm going to make this a viable... my neighbors are determined it needs to be farmland. I got to make my mortgage payment, right? So on the 15th of November, every 15th of November, Farm Credit Services automatically draws their payment out of my checking account. Now I only have 23 more payments to go, right? So I'll be, you know, but that's the purchase of land. It's just long-term horizon and praying that it all works out right. And so if it's farmland, I've got to make it productive enough to make my payment. And so I'll be bringing this fall in, and when the soybean crop comes out, I'll be bringing in manure to apply. And it does smell. I mean, I'll be the first to admit it is hog manure. But, I mean, if this is, you know, it's gonna be farmland. It's gonna be farmland, you know, somebody gives you lemons, you make lemonade, right? And so that is kind of the direction I'm going. Now, there's another vote at the City Council on Monday, the final vote, and that's, you know, to be determined on what will happen.
And to route it all back to monopolies. The price of my grain has fallen by 50%. Yet my input costs, fertilizer, seed, chemicals to kill all the weeds, have stayed the exact same or gone up 2% over last year. Why? Another monopoly, right? And so they surround us everywhere we turn. And I'm just trying to do my little part. You know? I know Mr. McGuire has passed away, but he would be smiling upon me, knowing that I, that, "See son? I told you." When I was 15 years old, right? “This is gonna affect you.” And you know, you're 15, like, “Ah, that'll have no effect on me.” And here I am at 50, just a pawn in another man's game. That's in conclusion. That's it. You know, yes, yeah, Monopoly is not just a board game. It's in our everyday life, and even for, like, me.
So I'm doing a small project on building a little retail center, and Knife River said, If we bring rock in, we'll reduce the cost of concrete by 10%. It's a $30,000 savings for me on that project. And imagine what the savings is for like, you know, the City of Sioux City, who buys millions and millions of dollars worth of concrete, you know, and even my neighbors, right? Like they're just, you know, they want a driveway. The city comes out and marks your driveway, says you got to have a new driveway. Their biggest complaint is, "That concrete is so expensive." Well, you know, we just all got a little education on why that concrete is so expensive. You can do your part to make it a little cheaper.
Mark Munger
So you're asking the Council to make this an industrial zone?
Dolf Ivener
Yes, it's commercial right now. Commercial to industrial.
Mark Munger
Right across track, here, is it industrial?
Dolf Ivener
Well, those are, I don't know, 50 million gallons of rocket fuel. I would say that that's probably about as industrial as it comes. And you know, ironically enough, I know that if my home was in the line of sight of a giant tank of jet fuel, I would want a giant rock pile between me and that jet fuel. I just think that that would be a really excellent barrier. But that's just me.
You know that whole physics, you know, my son's taking physics right now, and we're learning about, you know, he's coming home with questions. Yes, physics would tell you, you want something of large mass between you and a highly explosive liquid. Listen, it's, you know, it's just all there. And listen, it's between two railroad tracks. So this is, I mean, it's pretty industrial. And that's what it is, between two railroad tracks, down by the river, next to a giant tank of diesel fuel. Oh, yeah. In the distance, you can see the asphalt plant right there. Ironically enough, Mark, there it is, right there. So there's an asphalt plant right now, 800 feet away from my property, which would be farther than it would be to any of my neighbors. And don't think the irony is not lost on me, that when you look in the distance, you're looking at the asphalt tanks next to the jet fuel tanks. And my neighbors are like, "No, we don't want that. It's terrible. You'll ruin our property." Man, it is already here.
The whole thing just blows my mind. Blows my mind. There is no reality, just none. Just, you know, NIMBY, not in my backyard. Even when it's already in your backyard. I mean, it would be different if this was not, it's just, this is the most industrial site down here, and everything they're complaining about is already here. Anyhow, I can't, it's difficult to argue. And listen, I'm not arguing. It's going to be what it's going to be. And, you know, I can make this 90 CSR make money as farmland. I got a way to do it. And that's, you know, just what we'll do. I mean, it'll go from yields of 200 bushels to 240 right? If everybody does the math, it'll reduce my cost on fertilizer by $150 an acre. I'll get a 25 to 30 bushel yield bump, right? And at $4 a bushel. I mean, it's just all math. It's just all math. And in the end, it makes it so when Farm Credit Services goes to wire transfer the money out of my checking account, the money is there.
Listen, if I could figure out a way not to make that mortgage payment, I'd do it. But the contract is signed. The deal is done, right? Gotta do it.
Mark Munger
After talking with Dolph, I reached out to Mayor Bob Scott, who has opposed the rezoning of this land, to hear his perspective.
Knife River has changed their plans as to what they would do with the spot to mitigate some of the concerns. So they're no longer planning on having an asphalt plant there, but mostly just having an aggregate pile and ready-mix machine. Does that change your position on it?
Bob Scott
No, not really. Listen, I think they're a really good company, but there are places that are better suited for their operation than in, you know, right up against the residential neighborhood. And I know they say that they're as close to houses as they are now, but it's not nearly as densely populated where they're at now with houses and what it will be in this particular setting. So not for me. It doesn't change it. No.
Mark Munger
I talked to the landowner about his position and he's saying, you know, well, it is in a place where there's a diesel fuel tank right behind it, there's an asphalt plant. I looked Google Maps. I just measured the distance. There's an asphalt plant about 2000 feet away. How would you see this as being much different from the industrial use that's already right there?
Bob Scott
Because those are 2000 feet away, rather than 295 feet away. That's the difference for me. It's just too much too close, too much closer than what you're talking about. So that's why I'm not supportive of it, and it's unfortunate, because you know there is a need for what they're wanting to do. I just think there are other areas down south, closer to the 18th Street area where they're at that they could acquire and do what they want to do and not be as disrupted to a neighborhood
Mark Munger
In talking with them… them being Knife River. In talking with Knife River, one of the things they identified as of interest in this parcel of land was that the railroads on either side of it. I know that that makes it uniquely valuable to them. Are there other sites that have that same access to to the Union Pacific and BNSF?
Bob Scott
Well their existing site? IYou're probably too young to remember, but it used to have a rail running right through it, and they took that out years ago. And so I would think they could, they could at least get the UP to run that track back in there if they really wanted to.
Mark Munger
And you had you mentioned in your...
Bob Scott
But to answer your question, I don't think there's an area where they could hook up to both railroads, no. I don't know where that would be.
Mark Munger
Yeah, it seems that is unique about that as I look at the map. In your earlier answer, you said that they do need to do something like this. There's value in their pursuing a project like this, perhaps at a different site. What are you identifying as the value needed in this project?
Bob Scott
Well, there is not a lot of competition for concrete in this community, and you know that that drives all construction, no matter what it is. So that, if you can lower the cost for contractors, it's a win for the City.
Mark Munger
Are you specifically talking about there's no real competition for rock, for production of concrete.
Bob Scott
Yes.
Mark Munger
As Everist is the really the only one. I did call Everest just to hear the price of rock, and it's about $10 more in Sioux City than it is in Sioux Falls, per ton. So I am seeing that there is a pretty good difference in price between the two markets. And I know that would be in the interest of the taxpayers, as far as that goes.
Bob Scott
But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to go down that much, because no matter where you get it from up there, whether they buy it, or whether Knife River trucks it in from theirs, or railroads it in, you still got transportation costs. So, I mean, we just don't have a quarry close to us anymore. So that's part of the problem.
Mark Munger
One other thing that the fellow from Knife River, whom I talked to, mentioned was that if this proposal would pass through Council, they would still have to put the plans in front of Council to approve. Is that accurate?
Bob Scott
Right. Right.
Mark Munger
Okay, so there's a possibility that say, Council could pass this. But then in the future, when the plans are proposed and they think that, well, these plans would say, create too much dust in the area, that you could prevent them from building at that site?
Bob Scott
And that may pass. I mean, that's what so far, that's how the votes have gone. But it will take, it will take four votes, because enough of the neighbors protested that it takes a super majority to get past this next stage.
Mark Munger
And the main concern really is nuisance, dust, noise, things like that, for the community.
Bob Scott
Well, and then a lot of truck traffic.
Mark Munger
Do you think it would add a lot more truck traffic down there, like Highway 75/overpass area?
Bob Scott
Well if they're going out and the trains on one track, they're going out the other one, I know what they're saying, that they'll send all the trucks out, but, and I told Chris this from Knight River, you're going to go the road of least resistance, and I don't blame you, because that's how you make money. You don't make money by driving two or three miles extra. You know what I mean? Truck traffic is a concern for me, especially if they run that ready-mix plant out there, they're going to be running quite a few trucks a day to go buy standard ready-mix. And you know, trucks are coming and going all day.
Mark Munger
I don't envy any public official’s position, weighing these decisions? Could I get some insight into your particular position? So you're weighing the idea, well, there will be more truck traffic, let's say, in the area. On the other side of the balance is more competition for a necessary component of concrete, and then the lowering of concrete costs. And how do you balance that?
Bob Scott
Yeah, well, obviously I don't because I've been opposed to it from the beginning, but that is a real concern for the other four council members. And I get that. I understand that, but you know, the other problem for me is I live in that area. I go to the grocery store in that area, I go to coffee in that area, I do things in that area, and when 90% of your neighbors had 500 and some people signed petitions, when 90% of your neighbors are opposed to something, I'm going to be sensitive to that. And that doesn't mean I will always vote with them or against them, you know, but in this particular case, I think they have legitimate concerns, and I want to, I want to recognize those and be sensitive to them in my particular case.
Mark Munger
Well, I appreciate that insight to your thinking, your decision making process. And thanks for taking the time to talk with me.
Bob Scott
Alright buddy, nice talking to you.
Mark Munger
Sioux City City Council will vote on the rezoning of the land on Monday, September 16.
