Mark Munger
I'm Mark Munger. I was born in Sioux City, and have spent most of my life here. So it is that wherever I go, layers of memories live beneath the surface. That's so and so's house, I think, but it's not anymore. Going about town, I find that I'm always saying to myself, "That's where I went to school. That's where I went skating. That's where we got Christmas trees." But the building is no longer a school, a strip mall replaced the rink, a new development has come and gone. Instead of ghosts haunting my world, I can feel, sometimes, like I'm haunting a ghost world. So I thought, why not haunt the worlds of other people?
Jim Tillman
I'm ready. Yep.
Mark Munger
This is Jim Tillman, historian and author of The Journal of African American History, Sioux City, Iowa and the black experience 1950s Sioux City, Iowa.
Jim Tillman
You can take 6th Street.
Mark Munger
Together we left the station for the Old West Junior driving from Morningside to the West side.
Jim Tillman
Yeah, we can just drive by there and see it, since it's on the way. But yeah, it's all... you can turn right at Market Street. Yeah, that was West Third Park. That used to be a park before urban renewal came in.
Mark Munger
Before the Town View Park?
Jim Tillman
There used to be a park. You just go straight. That's, that's Webster. Used to be Webster grade school. Right here on the corner, that was the house. 318 West 5th. It was blue. I remember after my grandmother died in 74/75 you know, then they, they were they, you know, they were going to sell the house. Well me and my cousin, I don't know what grade we're in, 10th or 11th grade, or whatever, we, you know, we didn't have any money. We needed some extra money. Sorry, Aunt Katherine, that crook! Anyway, she hired us to paint the house, and we're talking about scraping and painting and... 50 bucks each. The whole house! I said, Aunt Katherine screwed us around. But anyway, that was some hard work, too. I remember that it was, it was blue, and it was, all we could see was $50! You must take a left here on West 5th there. Yep, yep, that's, that's the block. Yep, West junior high school, big transition from Hopkins to West Junior. Seventh grade. It's funny to imagine this massive school, you know, going from grade school, elementary school to junior high school, with a massive playground that seemed to be... seemed to be humongous.
Mark Munger
West Junior has been demolished. While we looked on, a bulldozer pushed heaps of dirt.
Jim Tillman
It's kind of important.
Mark Munger
Did you walk here?
Jim Tillman
Walked every day.
Mark Munger
Where were you walking from?
Okay, 12 years old. I remember. The first thing is, I remember my internal body heat, just just just getting hot. I probably was sweating as I think back.
Jim Tillman
Number one 17th Street. 17th and Main. Few people in the Hopkins grade school pictures, Dwayne Daniels bit as we call them, Derek Daniels, his brother, Petey Lightner. Hopkins and Webster were the most, ah, had the most minorities, as far as, back then, as far as grade school. I think Irving on the East side may have, may have been third, but, no, Hopkins, Hopkins was definitely number one and Webster number two. And there was a rivalry between Hopkins and Webster. You know, through grade school, we would compete in, I don't know, summer sports events or different playground activities. But then once Hopkins and Webster, everybody went to West Junior from there.
Mark Munger
To make friends, make amends?
Jim Tillman
Well, yeah. And the crazy part about it, whether it was Hopkins Webster, we all played at the Boys Club together, so it didn't, it wasn't no Hopkins. It was no. We were at the Boys Club, and that was, that place was not for the weak or the timid.
Mark Munger
The Boys Club?
Jim Tillman
Oh, yeah, yeah. You had your first experiences with bullies. I shouldn't say first experiences, but you know, because you had some minor ones when you grow up. But no, that was where, you know, that was where, even at West Junior, where, that's where the, I think about, you know, bullies encountered.
Seventh grade, seven-three, room 203. Mr LaBahn, yeah, first time ever I was the only black kid in the room. I mean, on the surface it wasn't that big a deal to me, because I grew up in an integrated neighborhood with white kids. But looking back, you know, was a new experience for the white kids at West Junior.
It was welcoming, because I was a pretty good athlete, and they wanted, you know, we wanted the good intramural team that's seven-threes against the seven-sixes. We better, you know, and I could play, you know, so that, you know, athletics bridge, that kind of, so the athletes in the seventh-three, we kind of connected and kind you just go from there.
You know, there were three moments that stick out of the 1000s of moments at West Junior. Seventh grade, my dad had the first of three heart attacks, and I was notified by the office attendant. She brought a note to Mr. LaBahn. We must have been... because he was a science teacher, so we were in our homeroom in the afternoon. So it must maybe it was a science class, I don't know, or study hall, or whatever, I can't remember. We got the note, and mom was in to come to the office, and my mom was there. And, I mean, my mom wasn't there. Mom was gonna pick you up and get ready. She's... yeah, that was the first of three heart attacks that he had.
So I leave West Junior, go up to the hospital, and, you know, it's a scene you don't really want to see. I remember him laying there and just had all kinds of stuff going on. Tubes and masked, and I, and I was very visual, and I think in my mind, I thought, I don't want to be like him.
Then later in the year, I remember it was in the afternoon. It was Mr. Hall, Gordon Hall's literature class, a reading class, room 206. That was the homeroom of the seven-sixes. Those are all the smart kids. The smartest of the smartest seventh graders were in seventh-six. So when the seven-threes played the seven-sixes in sports, we usually kicked them, kicked their butts. Luckily, there was no academic sports thing or whatever. Otherwise it wouldn't, it wouldn't have been close.
But, yeah, Mr. Hall's classroom, 206, it was in the afternoon, and we were reading some stories out loud. And the story that we were reading that particular day, or that season, was The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn. So we were reading aloud, and I, you know, I was having a good day, and my time to read was, was upcoming, maybe about three students away. So I'm, you know, we're, such and such as reading. Then all of a sudden I hear, "And Huckleberry and N****r Jim."
Okay, 12 years old. I remember. The first thing is, I remember my internal body heat, just just just getting hot. I probably was sweating as I think back. But, no, it was, like, very uncomfortable. And it's like, "Oh, my god." I was, I was thinking, and I was thinking, "I don't know when I'm going to die God, but this, this would be a good time. Like right now."
I, and then the response, you know, we were just kids in there, babies, you know. So there was some nervous snickering, laughing, not really knowing. But also there was some of my sports buddies who were in there, and they knew that wasn't cool. How it affected me. And I'm sure I didn't go and talk to my parents about it that evening, because I kept a lot of stuff internal. But yeah, that that, that was my nick N****r Jim moment, and it was devastating at the time, you know, but looking back in my journey, it was necessary to experience that. You know, and so they talk about banning books, and that's one of them. And I don't think they should do it, not because I had to go through the fire or whatever. I don't agree with that because you've got the artistic side of it, the freedom of expression, the actual, you know, when I was at West Junior, it didn't substitute that word for N word or something that was softer, that was more palatable.
Mark Munger
Why? Why do you say it was a necessary?
Jim Tillman
Well, for my evolution, for me to get the confidence to talk about race to other people. I can, I could internalize race and blah, blah, blah. But even in my professional career, I did a lot of stuff from behind the camera.
Mark Munger
You said earlier that this experience took you away from literature and that you didn't read after that.
Jim Tillman
No, if that's if that was a representation of a black person, a slave, a N****r Jim, no, I'm not interested in that. Give me some alternatives. Is that it? My God, there's got to be other stories. I mean.... Man, if somebody can sketch a drawing. Remember that building? How many lives went through there? Maybe we should start at the top of 17th Hill, 17th and Summit. Jesus. It's all connected. There's a McDonald's where Sherwin Williams used to be, where we played baseball, the Ghosts practiced.
Mark Munger
That's where the Ghosts practiced.
Jim Tillman
Yep, where Sherwin Williams is. Across the street there was another little field here, houses along there. Oh God, that Kentucky Fried Chicken on Hamilton, there? That was, that's what I worked at through high school. "Thank you for calling Kentucky Fried Chicken on Hamilton. This. Jim, how may I help you?" "Thank you for calling Kentucky Fried Chicken...." Sure. Mother's Day would be our busiest day. Fourth of July. Of course, you didn't have all, you know, you didn't have Popeyes, right? No, no, you didn't have Wendy's. You didn't.
Yes, Hamilton was, yep, A lot more houses instead of this commercial stuff. All those were houses over there, all this was houses. Yeah, this was the path to walking to Hopkins down 14th street. But you can go all the way up the hill.
Just, I don't know, just looks all, all bunched. Those used to be nice apartments, really nice. You can turn left here. 1512 Summit, Robert Walker lived there. Mr. Walker. Long time teacher at Central, West High. He's in my book. But, yeah, this is, you know, where we'd go trick or treating. We try to go on the North side.
You know they, this is, this is a street I, the hill I grew up on. It's a big hill. So you can imagine cars trying to come up in the winter time. And see, we knew the trick was because you had to get some get going. You couldn't just all of a sudden try to cruise up it when you hit Main Street? No, it was too late. And we used to, we used to laugh... That used to be a practice field for healing.
There it is, number one 17th Street. That side of the hill we played football. Backyard, we played baseball. There's something back there. Man, I think there's some chickens back there.
17th Street at 17th and Main. It used to go all the way down to Hamilton, so we've got Gilman Terrace over to the right, and Helen Memorial Field over to the left. So it was, it was even an event when Helen had home football games, because that parking was premium. There's memories of my mom went to Central, and she was all, "Central, Central best school in the land." Well, she used to heckle the Helen players that used to go up there. She'd be singing, howling from her, "Central, Central best school in the land." And, just, anyway, so they got used to that.
Yeah, this is, this is where we... this is football. This is football. We play Main Street.
Yeah, I'm looking at these houses, and that's where the Smiths lived. Who's a Smith? Well, 1612 Main Street. Harry Smith was one of the greatest jazz musicians ever out of Sioux City, and he worked. His day job was Iowa Beef. I remember, or, yeah, it was Iowa Beef, because I remember, you know, we knew what he did. He worked at Iowa Beef. But then I remember on the weekends Mr. Harry would be in his tux and heading out to, well, play whatever gig. But no, these guys had full time employment at packing houses.
Tony Drake used to live on 16th Street, so it'd be no big deal for me to see Tony Drake jogging down 17th. It'd be no big deal for Clayton Johnson, one of the greatest boxers ever from Sioux City, also a member of the Sioux City Ghosts. Be no big deal for him to come over and have some fish with my dad, or just. Man, these were legends. I didn't even know. I just, they just, but looking back now, it's like, "Wow!"
Okay, now, see where West 17th is? So this used to come all the way up, and then they go straight through, and that's the Sanford Center there. And you see where Pizza Hut is? My Grannny and Grandpa Tillman used to live there. But it used to be just a straight shot, just from Hamilton on up to Summit Street. I mean, this used to be Gilman Terrace, where we ran track, but you had your softball diamond over there, the track here, the football field, the high jump pit used to be over there, pole vault pit. And it was sawdust. Those are sawdust bags. Not very comfortable.
But, there's... a the warming house used to be there. The warming house was where you went in to warm up for ice skating or whatever, or where you put your football pads on. Yeah even behind, okay, so you got 17th Street and all that stuff behind 17th Street, there's no houses. That's what we called Kitty Cat Jungle. It was just just a jungle of bushes and, just, just stuff. But great place to play hide and seek. Oh, man, tremendous. And that was the great thing about Gilman Terrace. It was every day. It didn't cost my parents anything to get me enrolled at Gilman Terrace.
It was different times. I remember the lights coming on at night, the night softball game. And once again, I was a little kid. I don't know how interested I was in the game, actually, but just, yeah, it was, it was what was happening. So Okay.
Mark Munger
Jim Tillman brought us into his Sioux City. I'm Mark Munger. You can learn more about and from Jim Tillman on his website, Jim SC books.com.
